UFOs, Ghosts, and Whiskey - OH MY! Authors Linda Zimmermann and William R. Hincy

Have you ever witnessed something you couldn’t explain? Something that changed the way you see the world and your place in it? Join us as we talk to award-winning author Linda Zimmermann about her encounters with UFOs in the Hudson Valley, ghost investigations, and fiction writing. And get ready to laugh at Bad Science, bad jokes, and a heavy pour of bad podcasting. 

Today’s drinking game: drink whenever we say UFO!

Links:
William R. Hincy’s books: https://www.amazon.com/stores/William-R.-Hincy/author/B07ZYB5FHZ 
William R. Hincy’s website: https://williamrhincy.com/
Linda Zimmermann books: https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B00JH6OYAK 
Murder in the Hudson Valley (true crime podcast): https://www.iheart.com/podcast/256-murder-in-the-hudson-valle-30922454/
UFO Headquarters (podcast): https://www.iheart.com/podcast/256-ufo-headquarters-43053326/

Bios: 
William R. Hincy: “Some people run from their demons; others sit down and have cocktails with theirs.” William R. Hincy is a man who does and writes about the latter. Having become a writer after deciding it was the only sensible thing for a problem drinker to do, Hincy aspires to use literature to connect society on an emotional level through characters who no longer create messes but have instead become the mess. Between rounds, Hincy has won 3 American Fiction Awards, an International Book Award, and his personal anthology of short fiction WITHOUT EXPIRATION was named one of the Best Books of 2020 by Kirkus Reviews. He now lives outside Los Angeles with his wife and kids, having found solace in the notion that the only things sacred are self and whiskey-winged interludes.

Linda Zimmermann is a research chemist turned award-winning author of 30 books on science, history, the paranormal, and fiction. Her Ghost Investigator series of books led to comic books based on her cases. Her novel HVZA: Hudson Valley Zombie Apocalypse was turned into a graphic novel.

About WDW:
And for our algo-overlords (please introduce us to your friends!)… Welcome to your literary happy hour, Writers Drinking Whiskey, the show where you share a drink with writers from around the globe and you find more than your next read: you find the next AUTHOR you're going to love. Hosted by award-winning author William R. Hincy, the show takes booktube, authortube and booktok to another level with engaging, in-depth, and merrily irreverent conversations with today’s most interesting writers. And for our writers joining us, there's plenty of creative writing tips, fiction writing tricks, and poetry read by the poets.

Chapters:
00:00:00 Start
00:00:26 Introducing Linda Zimmermann
00:02:05 Where in the world is Linda Zimmermann
00:05:23 What are we drinkin
00:07:20 Bad Science
00:20:25 Hudson Valley UFOs
00:49:01 Animal reactions to UFOs
01:00:23 Ghost stories as living history
01:10:48 What ghost stories teach about storytelling
01:13:02 Mysterious stone sites
01:21:20 The connection between UFOs and other strange phenomenon
01:25:55 ghost story
01:29:55 Writing process
01:39:49 Sho

Thanks for tuning in! If you’d like to support the show, please consider joining us on Substack or picking up a book (or two). Links below!

Read PIRATES OF APPALACHIA and get access to additional episodes of Writers Drinking Whiskey on Substack: https://wrhincy.substack.com/

Pick up a book here: https://www.amazon.com/stores/William-R.-Hincy/author/B07ZYB5FHZ

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Transcript

0:00

Hello, everybody. Welcome to another edition of Writers Drinking Whiskey, your Literary Happy Hour, the show where every close encounter is of the third (or fourth or fifth) round kind. I am your host who always calls home despite what my mother tells you. William R. Hincy. And today, I'm really honored and thrilled to have award winning author Linda Zimmermann with me. And welcome to the bar. thank you very much. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I'm super excited about this. So I'll give you the brief bio and then you can, you know, add anything that I might have missed if you've had over 30 books. So I'm trying to get the overview here, but, science history, paranormal, fiction. your ghost of the Ghost Investigator series was adapted into the comic books. the novel. We were just talking about this kind of show. The novels. is is you just say the letters HVZA or is Hudson Valley zombie apocalypse? But HVZA is a lot easier. I get it, I get it now. The the hamster wheels moving. did you remember that that was adapted into a graphic novel and then other works, just to mention a few. You had that science was, I think, your review from today, which I'm really excited about. It sounds like a really funny book. yes. Hudson Valley UFO's, American historic and mysterious stone sites. and then amongst many, many others. part of that life was like, I know you started off as a research chemist. I think it was medical diagnostics. yes. Right. And I was kind of prior to becoming a full time author here. So anything you like to add to that illustrious list here or. no. I'm just tired out listening to all the things I've done. So, so, you've been busy. You know, I have stuff. Yeah, but it's all been fun, so it's not work when you're having fun. There you go. That's important. That's what I always tell people about the show. Like it's a labor of fun. Like there is labor. It ends up being a lot of work with us. But it's not like, right. Yeah, you go to it and that's that's the best type of labor. So. Absolutely. So I always like to start off with, you know, where are you in the world and where is the best place to get a drink. There. Yeah. So I am in Chester, New York, which is I can be in midtown Manhattan in less than an hour depending on the traffic. the best place to get a drink around here. We have some old time bars. I don't know, that was the one that was the best. Just closed during Covid. So, Yeah, we lost a lot of those. It's rural. It's suburban suburbs, but there's still a lot of rural areas. And, you know, that old, that old charm, the bar that's been there for 90 years. but, we've lost a lot of them. So, I don't want to name something. And then it's been closed. But, you know, go down some rural road, and when you see the blinking neon sign, that's where to go. The page is to go. Yeah, that's the sad part about it, rabbit. When you lose, that's my wife jokes. Because I always love these. I love, small businesses. So I'll find like, oh, this little coffee shop. And then they close on me. And so we've been married for 14 years, and I can't even think of how many different places are close now in fact, there a Vietnamese noodle place, a florist we loved. And I was having lunch there one day and made a joke to my coworker who was sitting with me like, if they ever close this place, I'll just never even him. You know, I just done and, the owner in my lab hears me saying that, and she didn't hear the whole comment. She just heard me talk about closing, and she goes, she came over, put her arm. I'm on my my, shoulders. Like, yeah, that was really sad when we had, you know, make the decision to sell the place. And I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. But she actually came to the house to show me and my wife how to make fudge. We went mad cause I was so distraught, like, okay, isn't that sweet? That's great. And can you make it? No, no, no, a lot of, I love Thai food, but you need the Thai ingredients. You can only substitute so many things right? so I don't have a Thai grocer near me, so for sure. but, yeah, I can. I can manage Indian food fairly well, but the Thai still eludes me because of the ingredients. All right. Sure. Well, we have all kinds. I guess we're, it's kind of the same thing. We're about 25 minutes from LA traffic. but LA is sprawl, right? I mean, it's just the sprawls. Endless. Now. You barely like, you go 60 miles now before you really hit anything, we start hitting the desert. We're going to slow rural, and but the the nice part is anything you ever want to do, you can go find. There's a Japanese grocery over here. There's the city. Oh, that's great. So my problem is more incompetence. Yeah. So. So show us. All right video that that you just didn't take a little harder to overcome. Then. Just a little bit. Just a little bit. So awesome. So then my favorite question of the show. What are we drinking today? Well, unfortunately it's not whiskey. I hope not to disappoint people. I am drinking a herbal tea called varsity in my new York Giants mug. yeah. Show my my team pride there. But, yes, it's a night. I've had a very busy day. It's one of those days where as soon as you get home, you're leaving again for the next appointment. So I thought a nice calming fire to tea it. it's an I. Your Vedic tea, which suits me. so it's, I, I never have a problem gearing up for something. It's the winding down. it's shutting off your brain so you can actually get some sleep. that, So this sometimes helps. Yeah. Yeah, I believe it completely. Yeah, I noticed that just yesterday, actually, you see, I make sure to get a workout in, because if I don't, I just have too much excess and energy throughout the night, and I'm just like, nah, I'm good at last night. I'm like, oh, you know, this Sunday, maybe I'll just take the day off for this stuff around the house. And I did all of that and around 11:00 I go to bed and then I'm just awake. I don't I don't know what time I went to bed, and I'm just, like, such a wide awake and like I say, so, so, so, so am I doing my job. Okay, I'm gonna work on this. so. So I hear you. And that's the secret of the show, you know? Anyways, it's very restrictive whiskey. But then, depending on recording time, I think I'm the last episode I recorded was with, Ken Liu, you know, a fantasy author.

and, we recorded at 9: 7:01

00 our our my time on the West Coast. So 12 for a hand. So both of us are like, might be a or. give us a coffee and let's chat here for a minute. So, Awesome. So then I wonder then, if we could maybe we can start then. So, I had mentioned in the, in the introduction there, if I can find my words that you had been a research chemist, you know, kind of medical diagnostics and things. and then you have come out with a book and let me see. I wrote it down here because I love the title so much. It was bad science, but then the subtitles, A Brief history. But those are misconceptions, totally wrong conclusions, and incredibly stupid theories. so let's a hilarious time. I was really happy to see that. So maybe you could kind of take us from. So I'm guessing maybe they're interconnected a little, you know, the, the schooling for being a research chemist, the things leading to that. But maybe you kind of take us on that journey, of your life. Sure. so I worked for a medical diagnostics company. Basically, we made the test kits. When you go to get your blood tests, we made the test kits to, you know, determine, all of that. And I love laboratories. I love lab glassware and instruments and, you know, it's just, I love experimenting and things. and, you know, there were quite a few PhDs there who had an attitude and, would, you know, try to lorded over everybody. And when they made a mistake, of course it was your fault. And, so I was making a joke at one point that, you know, I should just start collecting all these stupid things these kids do. And then I realized I love history. So I was like, well, you know, there's a history of this. So I just started researching and went way back to the ancient Greeks. And it is all the crazy things people believed, you know, that the universe, all the planets were on these crystalline spheres, and they moved because the spheres moved. And the more scientific data, you know, we started collecting in the 15 1600s, that theory was not working. So let's not get rid of the spheres. Let's add more spheres. And then what? You know, that doesn't work anymore. Well, now we need even more, you know, and they'd have dozens and dozens and dozens of sphere. And finally somebody said enough. It's you know, it's right, but it takes so much. And, you know, people like Galileo, well, let's torture him because he thinks the sun is in the center of the, the solar system. And so there's just been and the fraud people commit and it just went on and on. People I think the general public sees scientists in a way, as some a semi revered group of people, you know, there's like almost this arbiter of truth about it, right? They're like, oh, well, you you follow the science because that's the truth. Right? And I'm not necessarily like, oh no, no, no, no. So, and you know, my I look at it in the humorous light, you know, as, as the title, you know, this was not a scholarly review of, of scientists little mistakes. It was, you know, let's have fun with this. So, that's funny. Is there any of your. It was that your favorite examples are the, the cylindrical spheres going around, or was there any one that kind of always stuck out to you? Oh, you name it, they used to think there were tooth worms. That's what, that's why you got decayed. Yeah, but, you know, at the time, you think people's food, you know, they had maggots in it and everything, and. Yeah, of course you have a worm in your mouth. You just put it there and you and your bread. And that the way to get rid of them was. There was some really bad. I don't know how much you want it here, but one of the things was to, let's say remove the sphincters of certain animals and put them on a string around your neck. And that would protect you from from tooth worms. Maybe we're going to need a drink at the end of this. Mammary gland. I'm thinking about this. Let's be right now as you, But. But you name the science, medicine. I was going to read a short thing about, you know, some of the medical discoveries. that it just seems that you get these older, entrenched scientists who don't want to hear from the upstart younger ones who are completely overturning. I mean, look at Pasteur and and, you know, all these famous people who had to fight tooth and nail to. Yes. There's things called germs. You know, there are bacteria. There's, so it really you name the science, and then even some of the modern things, there was, I believe it was at Harvard, this, brilliant young cardiologist was, receiving all kinds of grants to study certain heart medications in dogs. And somebody noticed that he initiated this experiment on, say, June 3rd. And he left the lab, and somebody looked at his paperwork. He put in the initial June 3rd results, and then he put in the results for two days, one week, two weeks, one month. He was just making it up completely like day one. And he's putting day, you know, month one results in. And this was a huge a huge scandal because he was the golden boy. And then they had the university had to return hundreds of thousands of dollars in phony, you know, grants for phony experiments. And then then everyone who was associated with him is now tainted. Sure. So, yeah. So it's not just people making mistakes and clinging to it. There's people doing out and out fraud and. Sure, is there any that are still going on? Like, I know, I think of some like, I don't know that there's still commercials, but there used to be the bracelet you put that, that bracelet would just, like, seal everything. Oh, absolutely. You name it, the snake oil salesman are alive and well. You know, socks you put on, the herbs that you never heard of before, and you have no idea where they're coming from. But, yeah, the bracelets, the pendants, the, people still are pushing pyramid power. And I'm probably going to get hate mail from that. What do you mean, what isn't real? I mean, up, up, up. But, Yeah, it's. It it's still, unfortunately, very much alive and well, and, so someday in my future, there may be a bad science to or at least an updated version. Yes. probably. so, what? So was it just kind of being in the lab and witnessing, you know, not that they were fraudulent, did they? There anything when you were there, but was it just kind of the witnessing, like the behavior, the PhDs that inspired you to, I mean, maybe write that book, but did that inspire you to kind of go into writing full time or. Oh, no, writing was something I did as a little kid. I kept a diary every single day for like 20 years. I started as a, you know, knew what I, I don't know what was maybe ten or something when I started and I was always writing and it was something I thought I would do when I retired. but then the laboratory was, our company was bought by some big corporation who decided to just close the research and development, division, which is I was in research and development, and so all my other friends were scrambling for other jobs and in science. And I said, you know, I'm, I'm young, I, I have some savings. Let me try writing now, and I can always go back to the lab. And there was some very lean time. Starving artist. Yes, but I never I never had to go back to the lab. So, it was it was a scary decision to make, but it's something I loved so much. I it when you love something like that, you really put yourself into it. Heart and soul. unlike a regular job. Oh, my God, you're looking at your watch. Is it time to go home yet? And yet with writing. Oh, only 12 hours have gone by. You know, it's it's different when you put your all of your energy into something, and you can hopefully you'll find a way to make it work. Whatever it is. Music, art. writing. Sure. Yeah. You know, it's funny, it's, synchronicities of the, of the show here. It's just in life. Right. But my so I worked for a medical device company. I was on a fact. I was just, this was a last week or two weeks now. we opened a new plant. We moved a, manufacturing plant from China over to Taiwan to, where we had another plant, and I had to go, okay, one of my last things with the company, I needed to go up the plant, go in the clean room and everything. Right. Go in there. I fouled that up completely. But, you know, by the way, I, I was like, what's your guys's process for when people really mess this up? Because I've just destroyed this, you know, it turns out they had a process. I'm like, well, that's not a finding, but I'm sorry that I gave this to you here, but there we are. but I was on this show, recording device that had been maybe three months ago. and at that point, you know, I'm a director, my titles director of quality regulatory, with SJ Rozan. And she used to be an architect, and we're talking about that, and she's like, you know, it's just hit a point where I just can't focus anymore. You know? I love my job. I love my I love the people, but I can't focus anymore. I just wanted to write. And then I was like, yeah. I was like, I feel exactly that way. It's the kind of like I can't focus, like, everything is so hard, but used to be so easy to do. and then they gave me the word that when this project's over, you know, they had already shut down my division. You know, I already got through giving, bought and shut down the division. And they kept doing for all these projects while they wrapped me completely into this project. And they said, okay, this project goes in and goes away. And the same thing. I was like, you know what? I've been doing this like, we have two older kids. They're grown up there, we have grandkids now. They have their kids. Wow. You do not look old enough to have grandkids. Oh, well, it's all the drinking. It keeps you young. I also, that's what I find, contrary to what people think. but then that happens to me and my wife. Talk to me about it. She's like, you know, why don't you just, like, just go pursue it? We're doing fine. Go like, go full go full time into it. So, I, I'm kind of right at that moment you just described, I'm like, okay, I think June 28th is my last day, and I'm like, oh, my, I have one real thing I need to do before them. So like, I do that and I'm like, okay, well it's time to you, man to go out and brave the brave. The Wild series. So congratulations. It's, it's it's time, right. You know when it's time. Right. And it's I get what you mean. It's exciting and there's, it's scary but you know. Oh yeah I felt the same like I can go back I mean if we can't feed the kids. Yeah. Good job. You know maybe that's enough for each of them to feed themselves. You know it's thing for everyone. That's right. Yeah. Life is too short to not do what you enjoy if you can. Right. You have to at least give it a shot. Yes. Yeah, yeah. And there's no shame in that not working out because so much is luck and everything else. But you got to just give it your shot at some point. So absolutely, I applaud that. So good for you. I also so I think that movie cool. Maybe we can transition to, you know, Hudson Valley UFOs and I know, you had a couple experiences yourself, so maybe you could tell us about the book. And if I remember right, and I should, I always pull back the curtain. I need a tour effect for the show because I always tell everyone what I do. Is that the way I had, was introduced to your work was through the Unsolved Mysteries podcast. and there was an episode that talked about the Hudson Valley, you know, UFOs. And I think some other there are some other things, too. It's been a few weeks since I listened to it, but, so maybe you can tell us about the book. Maybe your encounters, and we can just go from there? Sure. it wasn't anything I planned on doing writing about UFOs, but I. I grew up in the Hudson Valley of New York, which is, it runs from New York City up to Albany. So about 120 miles. I don't know, something like that. and growing up, there were always UFO stories in the news or, you know, people who saw something. And actually, as a little kid, I thought UFOs were normal because there were so many stories like, okay, we don't know what they are, but they're all around. And, yeah. So when I was writing about different things, I did a lot of lectures in local libraries. You know, there's a million libraries. So I would, you know, do different, whether it was history or the paranormal. And people would come up to me afterwards and start telling me their UFO story. And I'm like, I just spoke about the Civil War. Why are you telling me this? Like you, you know, you live here. We like the way you tell a story. You should do a book. And and I just kept hearing this for decades, and I was interested because I did have, a couple of sightings. And I said, you know, I should really look into this. And, you know, the I don't know what you have out in California, but there used to be these little newspapers called, like the Penny saver or something. They were free. Little local people could put ads in and they'd have a couple of articles. And so I contacted one of them and they said, yeah, we'll put an article in author looking for UFO stories. Well, it's the dam burst. I would I could not believe I was afraid to open my email and handwritten letters and just people who hadn't told their story for like 30, 40 years because of the ridicule factor. They wanted somebody who wouldn't make fun of them just to listen. So I very rapidly had enough for one book. The first book was In the Night Sky, and we actually made a film about it, which which won an award. And then came the second book, the third book. And I'm like, this is ridiculous. So I put them all a year or two ago, combined all of these stories into a massive eight and a half by 11. I think it's a 4 pound book. and so it's a comprehensive if if you're interested in UFOs, you, you know, in this area, this is the this is the book to go to. In fact, there was just, there's one hot spot in this area called Pine Bush, and Saturday was the Pine Bush UFO fair. And, I think it was somewhere around 7 to 10,000 people showed up in this tiny little town. And, I have another stack of people, you know, of witness forms and things. It's, it's self propagating. and, and so it's been fascinating because I'd say, 90% of the people are genuine. They've seen something. They don't know what it is. They just want to tell their story. I had just on Saturday, he's a retired police officer. Works security now, very, you know, straightforward straight shooter guy. He had a sighting back in 1973. He and his sister, when they were kids, and it incredible sighting, a massive craft. He said if I had a baseball, I could have hit it. It was so low, and it just. He said it. Yeah. Of course it made an impression on his life. These are life altering experiences lasted about 40s and he remembers it like it's it's yesterday. So it's really it's kind of an honor and a privilege that these people feel comfortable telling me, you know, these stories they they haven't shared before or with very few people. And it makes the people when I tell the stories or they read the book, they say, oh, I'm not alone. You know, I'm not crazy. Well, some of them are still crazy, but, you know, I'm not alone. And and I remember this one elderly woman who had an amazing sighting and she said, you know, I didn't ask for this to happen. And I don't appreciate when people make fun of me. And I'm like, I'm on your side. I'm on your side. so, yeah, it's just been a wild ride. And, every time I think I'm going to back away from the UFO topic and concentrate on something else, it keeps pulling me back. So. Well, I'm sure once you once you get your foot in and people know because you're almost like a therapist, it agree, right? It's like I have this story that that touched me, but I'm afraid to tell anyone. I can tell you because I know anyone who stands and. Yeah, that's. Yeah, I that's it. Exactly. You do have to play the role of therapist. And, I mean, I've had some peeps of grown men break down in tears telling me their story because was frightening or just so intense and, nobody would listen to them. And, you know, you're like, okay, I, yeah, you just, I didn't. Yeah. Again, I worked in a lab, you know, this was not something I learned in school how to interview UFO witnesses. So I've been learning over the years as well. And you just, you know, you give them an ear and you try to share with them what you've learned, you know, from other cases. And, so it's really it's really been amazing. And but it's funny when, I, I run across somebody on Facebook who I used to work in the lab with. They're like, you're doing what? You know. You know, because they knew me as, you know, R&D chemist. And, here I am on, some podcast or TV show talking about UFOs and. That's terrifying. it's funny, you know, mentioning the witnesses because I wonder how much more with any kind of, I don't know, that's always the greatest term or not, but but, you know, paranormal, to kind of lump a bunch of, yeah, things together, is that I wonder how many more witnesses there really are, you know? Oh, if there's really a Sasquatch, why aren't more people seeing it? It's like, well, lots of people are, but I wonder if this. How much more than just, you know, how much you sightings you get, like, one of the ten, you know, like how many people just or, like, don't want to tell anyone or they just don't want any publicity, right? Maybe they tell their family and friends, but they're not. They don't want to, like, bother coming on a podcast. Yeah. And then the ones who do talk to people, how many of them report it? It's less than 1 in 10. There were incidents in the Hudson Valley during the 1980s. There was a huge wave for about six years, and these massive triangular craft would hover at tree top level over major highways, and all the traffic would stop and people would get out of there, you know, roads you should not pull over on. All the traffic just stopped and everybody got out of their cars and there are many, many nights where there were easily 5000 witnesses. Wow. And yet you have like 2 or 3 reports from that not, you know, not to say they didn't tell friends and, but they never came out with it. So yeah, it's it's probably a staggering number. yeah. That that remains that's probably what happens in California. I just our freeways are always stopped where they shouldn't be stopped. So people look up. Look up. Come on. You're missing it. What was that? The, the UFO flap. Was that, like, Close Encounters? So they take some of that? I think there was. I don't remember if it was Hudson Valley, but I remember there was a UFO flap that, when they made Close Encounters of the, the third and fourth kind, whatever the movie style was. Yeah. What year was that film? I know Hynek was in it, and he certainly jail. And Hynek, who was, you know, the Project Blue Book and then went out on his own. but, yeah, he certainly knew about the Hudson Valley wave, and I'm sure and I hear Spielberg is coming out with a new UFO. Oh, film he's working on. Yeah, it'll probably be two years from now, but it's all very hush hush. But he's working on something so I don't know. I'm only speculating. You know, with all these Navy pilots and Tic Tacs they're seeing and all this government, I'm sure, it's going to be a very interesting film. There's a lot of truth in his. He he took a, for Close Encounters. He took a lot of actual, you know, cases and sightings and and put that into his, his films. So I'm sure he'll do a good job. And, you know, I'll give you my number. Spielberg, if you want to consult me, I'll be sure I'll be happy to do a cameo. this year for your comic book character. yeah. Let's be a bird movie. Like, these are bucket list items you're taking. Oh, yeah. I was telling you before the show, I just need that action figure now. So. I recover. did you feel vindicated at all with, Because now it's. I remember growing up like UFOs. It was like, oh, you know, you're silly or whatever, and I've always, I've always been very curious. Right? So, like, I naturally like, oh, what are UFOs like? You know, ghosts, whatever. I'm curious about whatever's happening there. Physics, everything. Right? I'm just like, oh, you know, what are these people thinking? So did. But it was not mainstream, right? Most people like a year. You're two. There's no aliens. and then after, it's like the Nimitz. I think that was the one of San Diego coast here. and the different, Navy pilots and things coming up. Did that kind of give you some vindication for for all of it, or did it not with you. It absolutely changed the field. knock on wood, I never personally got ridiculed to my face. At least I think maybe I intimidate people. I, oh, I that might be that. I think they might be afraid of me. but certainly the in tire field change, especially when the New York Times came out with the article in 2017 and people who would, you know, just kind of brush it off, they'd say you were right. You you were you were ahead of the curve and you know, and you're like, yeah, where have you been? You know, if you just the problem is critics and real skeptics, they don't study the history and the cases. there was I don't remember who it was. was just running down all these these, witnesses. And somebody asked, well, how many witnesses have you personally, you know, and interviewed? And the guy's like, well, none. But, you know, I've read things and I've seen that when you sit down across from somebody who had a UFO hovering over their head for 20 minutes at treetop level, and you look into their eyes, you know the truth of it. You don't know what it is they saw, but, you know, they saw something that was on a plane. It wasn't a helicopter. They saw something and not an enormous and just unexplainable. And you have to talk to the people, the people who have witnessed it. Well, that's what I was of, of thought with it, you know too, is that when you actually like, you discount so many people when you just out of hand say this isn't real. Like I think one of the Hudson Valley ones, they tried to say it was like ultra lights. my dad used to fly ultra lights. My dad was a pilot, you know, before he bought with a little Cessna. I think it is, if you find these ultra lights and I've been a. It's like a go kart with wings, right? That's exactly what I say. That's it? Yep. Go kart with, with a giant weed whacker engine. Right. And they sound like that too, right? But right now, no one thinks that's a giant silent UFO hovering. You know, no tree like you would just see, ultra, like they're like, yes, yes. And unfortunately, storm ville airport, which is in the Hudson Valley, had a group of Cessna pilots and ultralight pilots. They called themselves the Martians. And once the UFOs were happening, they would actually get tipped off. I've spoken to some of the people involved. They would get calls that, a UFO was just seen over route 84 in Yorktown Heights. They would jump in their planes, and then they'd turn on their lights and fly in a V formation. So it would it was great. It was great disinformation. It was great cover. No, that was us. That was us. And, yeah, they did this for quite a while until a pregnant woman was driving along the road and they were doing their low flyby, and she thought it was a UFO and like, went off the road and almost, you know, she could have gotten killed. And then when they realized, oh, wait, there's liability here. they find they were getting threatening phone calls because people knew who they were. But, you know, ultra Night lights are not supposed to fly, at night in the dark. And these idiots were risking their lives and the lives of the people on the ground. And most of them were also professional pilots. So their risking their livelihoods as well for a stupid joke. so, yes, that that still rears its ugly head on a, on a regular basis. But no, you are correct. There is no you know, I always say it's like mistaking a flock of lawnmowers, you know, for a giant silent craft, right? Right. Yeah. Also the lights or anything, they are not silent. No, no. Yeah. I went up in one as part of the research for this. Because if you're going to discredit something, you need to experience it. And it was a little intimidating at first, but as soon as we took off. Oh my God, you feel like Superman. You know, they feel like you're floating. You realize. Yes. Bird up there, it's right. Right. I absolute loved it. but no, I was not mistaken for a UFO. You, That's where you. Yeah. You also. Right? It's a it's a it's a cool experience. My dad, I mentioned he flew them. He also crashed them, so. Oh. His last crash, he slipped from be laughing about it. Work. he hurt himself pretty good. I think he broke his ankle. luckily, his back was okay, but he did hurt it. I don't think anything was broken. he got airlifted to the hospital, you know, and things. So that was his end of ultra life. So then he got a real plane of things, so. Yeah. Right. And the actual airplane. But the actual aliens names, I get. Why. Yes, I would. I would be terrified at dark trying to run around. Oh it's, it's crazy to, to do that in the dark. but but yeah. So unfortunately there was a very effective disinformation campaign at the height of the sightings. So. Right. Yeah. That's happened with, I think, crop circles and things too, where they're like, they'll have these crop circles and then someone will come out, oh, I made it this way. And then they show you and it looks nothing like it. And just like, right. Oh, that guy makes this other thing over here, you know? But he stopped. I'm sorry. It's an it looks. That's right. Yeah. He took a board and some rope and stomped down the weeds and. Yeah. What? Whatever is happening, there are people who try to fake it and and now with, with, AI and all the things people can do, faking videos, it's it's it from this point forward, forward, it's going to be almost impossible to authenticate any photograph or video. Yeah. Yeah. There's it's unfortunate. It's, it's interesting with AI and things just I wonder if like you know, things like going to the actual theaters and things like actual seeing humans again like we, it's like we've gotten very into these screens, you know. And then I wonder though, if it's going to be like, you start to distrust them so much because of all the AI and these things. I was like, well, I'm not I don't trust anything I see I'm here. Why don't we just go over here and see human? And no, they're actually they're, you know. Yeah, but but I do have to say I am a lover of old movies, particularly from the 30s. And I would love to see more Cary Grant, Clark Gable, Clark Gable movies, you know, making making new movies with these, with these characters. so there's, there's going to be great benefits, but there's going to be a lot of nonsense to sift through. There is. Yeah, it's going to be hard to find the, with the signal through through the, noise. And so I wonder then with your, your background in the sciences, how do you approach when you, you know, UFOs or ghosts than any subject like that? You approach it as kind of a, as a scientist is more of like a journalist just collecting the stories both like how how do you go about that? Yeah. You you can take the girl out of the lab, but you can't take the law out of the girl. You know, I was a science nerd as a little kid. You know, my brother and I would always do experiments. And every summer we'd have a different science project for the summer. And so, yeah, it's. I think it's that, you know, going moderately skeptical, but open minded, you know, there's a balance there, but is there any science you can do to prove or disprove and always look for the rationale. So I think people know I, I will give you a fair shake. obviously you know what I do. I know this exists. And, you know, you better know I'm coming to test your credibility. And I want to I want to stand in the location if I can, at the same time of night or day. And is there a flashing cell tower over there? You in the past? airplanes is, you know, is there anything, you know, it's tough. because some of these usually, when something happens in the UFOs, you can stand on the same spot for the next 50 years and never see it again. so you're just trying to judge what in the area might have caused it and then talk to the person and other witnesses. And when they seem credible and you can't describe it to anything mundane, I'll put it in the plausible category. but like there was one back to Pine Bush, about ten years ago. eight years ago, a whole family saw this circular craft. it didn't land in a field at hovered about three feet above. And you. There were these circles of. It wasn't a crop circle, but all the tall grass was bent and broken at a certain height of about three feet. And you take a Geiger counter into the circle, and it's seven times normal radiation. You go ten feet away. It's fine. You go back, you know, and there were three different circles of crushed grass, you know. How do you explain that? Otherwise? You know, something a Geiger counter. What does it measure again? Radiation. Radiation. Okay. So, so the guy with the stick, that stick had a lot of radiation as he went through. That. Was it? you have to have stick. Yeah, yeah. It's radio. Yeah. Little your range stick of uranium. He was using, So. Yeah. You can absolutely bring science hard science to, you know, ufology is not a science yet, but that doesn't mean you can't apply scientific techniques to everything you do in the this and and the paranormal. Right. Yeah, absolutely. I you know, it's interesting. I don't know if you've ever seen this show. the truth is out there, I think it's the name. It's the guys, that host it. He's like an old he's a journalist, I guess, for a long time. And what they do is I'll take videos and things, that people have seen. So like, oh, yes, it's that History channel or this History Channel. I go, okay, do they just leave. Yes. Enough on Google. Yes. Well I too and they do that too, which is, which is really fun about that show is that. Yeah. Sometimes it'll be like literally in the flight line and they'll be able to find what plane that probably was so they can match it to the right. And it's like, oh, that's really cool. But then there's other ones where they're like, oh, we think this is a real UFO. Like we there's a plausible UFO Howard. Yeah. However they phrase it that no this doesn't make sense. Yeah. So it's it's fun when you do that and then you still have the open mind because then you don't just go oh that's you know I think someone was trying to say some of the stuff that maybe you guys were seeing. It was a balloon like, oh, what's you're telling me this guy saw a balloon in traffic? But yeah, come on. Like, I mean, who's the bullshitter here exactly. And and, you know, these are Top Gun pilots. Not to mention, I think in that one with the Tic TAC, the USS Princeton was, you know, had tracked these on radar. They have the most sophisticated, tracking and monitoring. And if the guy you have in that seat doesn't know a balloon from. So we are in deep, deep shit. He's. Oh, really? there I what do you think? Because I do like the the current kind of materialistic or materialism kind of view is we just want to, you know, prescribe, like, all UFOs or just their technology of some sort. Right. Anything goes. The technology bubble. You know, not too long ago, we probably would have said they were like, you know, gods or angels or something, right? Well, enough though, right? It's just kind of whatever the world views of time, do you have any theories on what you think they might be or. I clearly think a lot of them are nuts and bolts because, you know, they break branches on trees and crush grass and light reflects off them. And, you know, but there are some the, the really high strangeness cases where, you know, everybody talks interdimensional. Now. And I guess physics is proving there's umpteen dimensions. And, you know, that's I think everything's on the table. and until we have that explanation, sure, I'm open, but I don't see for me, I don't see the problem with the technology explanation, because even though if they're from another dimension or who knows where, they're probably using technology to get here somehow. So, all speculation, but, I'm, I'm still in the nuts and bolts camp. sir. Well, I always wonder, like, you know, why is it more fantastical to things like there was a breakaway civilization on Earth when they, like, almost like there's a Black Panther movie, right? Like we're kind of there. It's like. And they they're little, like, more technologically advanced. Oh, like, why is that less plausible than aliens coming from? And I don't know, I just I just think about these things. Right? I'm like, why is that less plausible than aliens coming? Yeah, I was there as a land to a civilization that just got so far ahead that they were like, yeah, we don't really want to bother with people. And that's why you see them over nuclear plants that like, well, we're not going to let you blow the planet. That's right, that's right. They have a vested interest. If they live here, too. yeah, that's certainly possible. we've been around long enough that there could have been a real advanced civilization. and imagine somebody who even had a hundred or thousand years more than what we've done now that could account for it. A lot of people say, you know, that what we're seeing is us in the future. Future or it is, is a break away. So, you know, it can make your head hurt when you think about all the possibilities. Yeah. so, you know, I don't usually get into the speculation of it all. My real interest. And what I focus on is interviewing witnesses and trying to piece together, you know, similarities and, you know, just get the history and the information of these cases out into the public. Yeah. I mean, that makes sense. You said you were interested in history right before things like that. And then, if this is modern history, you know, I'm Half Moon right now, so, yes, it's a ton of sense. And then the other witnesses, before we move off the UFO topic here is the animal witnesses. Right. And I know that you had the book. They noted it was animal reactions. Do you have those. what did you know, what did you learn in that research process a lot because when interviewing witnesses time and time again, they said my dogs were going crazy. They were barking like maniacs or the cats were howling. And so I looked outside and saw this. And one day I'm giving a lecture, and I told a story like that, and I paused. I said, you know, if it wasn't for our pets, we'd miss half of these UFOs. And so, you know, the proverbial little, light bulb went off over my head and I'm like, wait a minute. I feel like I need to get a book on animal reactions to UFOs. There were none. There are. I don't know how many scores of UFO and books. People had written articles and papers. And I was like, oh no, this is this is too important. So I really delved in and really everything from insects to elephants, every continent, around the world, you, you name the species, the era. there are these severe animal reactions usually fear, they want to get away from whatever this is. And so I was getting into the science, naturally of it as well. Like, I, I think one of the big things is, animals have something called magneto reception. They're very sensitive to magnetic fields and a a rather, interesting example of this. If you I don't know if you have a dog or ever had a dog. They want to face North when they do their business, right? Yes, absolutely. If they're not on a leash and you know, you have them in a threat if you just let dogs out in the yard or in the field, you'll see them spinning and, you know, there there have been times when I yelled, yelled at my husband, stop the car, and I jump out with my compass, and I because I see a dog and, in the yard and. Yep, there you go. And, you know, I think, yeah, I think if cows who want to face a certain thing and you can do Google Maps and see huge herds of cows and they're all facing they they use it for hunting, they use it for survival. birds use it to navigate because there's something called magnet. magnetite. Just magnetized iron. It's in the brain and in birds it's in their beaks. So it's like a million little compasses for them. You like homing pigeons for the migrating, you know? Right. And actually, carrier pigeons and other birds, they physically see the magnetic fields. I, I talked to a group at, at Urbana-Champaign, university in Illinois. They're studying this. There's something called cryptochrome in the eyes which allow these birds still see it. Like they think like a curved gray, line. So if they see a curved gray line going off to the right, they know that's east. If it's curved that direction. So they are physically seeing road maps in the sky. So then, all animals have this. Humans have it too. They're finally admitting humans have magneto reception. so if you introduce a UFO, which we know can turn off your car, it interferes with radio and television. Lights go out. Very strong electromagnetic fields to these animals. It must be like being on a roller coaster blindfolded. It just totally upsets their natural order of things. And I think that's causes a lot of the. This could be a lot of other things. High pitched sounds, all kinds of things. But I think that's probably a lot more science than you wanted to hear. No, that's really interesting. Right. For that. No. it's funny. And I'm going to have to watch because how the how the bar set up was right over here. There is a the wall is basically a sliding glass door. so it's kind of indoor outdoor. But the real privilege is I get to watch my dogs go to the bathroom whenever they do, because. But you're left out, right? Oh, it's so embarrassing through a pool. And then you see a dog circling everywhere. You know, and it's really easy because, that's north. It's just right over here is where the, San Gabriel Mountains are. If you ever see the Rose parade and. Yes. Yes, that's. I'm along those same mountains. Oh. Nice. North. so it's really easy there now. So now I'm like, oh, so that's probably why they face and they're not staring at me this way. I'm. Oh, as much as they like you, that's not the reason. but yeah. So as strange as that is, what does that tell you? That is a comfort level for them. That is how they feel at ease to to do their business. It's and and they, they, they're doing studies now that the slightest deviation because magnetic fields deviate slightly throughout the day they, they adjust to it even minute changes. So it's really like when an earthquake's coming and animals take off before the earthquake or sound alarm state, they know they have they have senses that we need to pay attention to. Right? Right. Yeah, I believe it. I was, where, where my wife and I worked was, medical device company for insulin pumps. So for people. Oh, this. And, there was a lot of people, a lot of diabetics would have service dogs. And the and the company now has a little sensor you put on your body, it measures your, glucose, and things and sends it over to your phone and they insulin pump and things. But the service started to pick up on them having a low blood sugar before that was, that's what the dog would be for me to kind of alert them and then alert anyone around them, you know, but preferably alert them that, oh, you, you know, you're a lifesaver or whatever, right? This, you know, sugar. and so you'll see, they'll be at work and then the diabetics there and have them and I've seen them other places too. But the the dogs at work. And that was just a job. And I don't you know, I feel the same if it's, if they can smell, you know, you know, they can smell a lot more than us. so if those. Yeah. The difference in your chemistry or what. But that's it. Yeah. They are amazing. They can even smell cancers, in people. so yeah, we really need to. It's not just a novelty. Oh, look what you know. Look what Fido is doing. It's very important information. Yeah, they have access to, So. Yeah, for medical, for everything from medical to UFOs. It's something we really need to pay attention to them, right? Yeah, absolutely. Was there anything else that surprised you or anything when you did that research, or was that the big one? The science behind it was, you know, the, birds have these, Herbst corpuscles that detect vibration, like, you know, when you see, see a wading bird standing in the water and all of a sudden they dart down, it's because when a fish goes by, it's a tiny little vibration. They feel it in their legs. And, you know, it was. Yeah, it's amazing. You have to read the book. I'll send you a copy. I have to yeah, I have to read that. But it's just so the science behind it but also the variety. There's a great case from, Phoenix, Arizona, the Phoenix Zoo. I think it was back, probably about 15, 20 years. And this, UFO came over the zoo at night when it was closed, the the guard's, truck, he was driving around, stalled. Everything went out, and they said there was this light beaming down. This blue light said there were sounds of alarm from every animal. Now you've got, you know, you have reptiles to lions and tigers and bears and, animals from around the world. I mean, if that isn't the prime case, you know, and, and a lot of them, they said, oh, they were disturbed by the lights. Well, a lot of animals are in at night. They're not, you know, they're in enclosures or they're inside. So it was animals inside or out, regardless of what they were seeing. They were feeling something. They were sensing something. They had to actually get the vet because they were so worried they had been harmed. The animals were okay. But sometimes these animals, it takes days or weeks to recover or they never do. They? Yeah, they get this PTSD over it. It's so traumatic. Right? Right. Yeah, I believe it. I, I had on, Matt Pruitt, he wrote a book about, the Sasquatch call that the phenomenal Sasquatch thrown up the different sightings and things. And, and so we've talked about that. And one of the things there was a, I'm in recovery that there or there's also a podcast he knows the guy called Sasquatch Chronicles, and, the host just brings people out. They just tell their stories. So if you're just interviewing witness after witness and, you know, he'll ask questions to things, but mostly he just lets them, you know, talk and, you know, tell their story. And you hear that all the time. It's like they'll be hunters. They're hunting dogs and the hunting dogs will hide under the car and refuse to come out. Right. It's the weirdest behavior. I mean, it's like these dogs open up after bears and things and hid under the car, and it's like, what is like that? It's like true fear for absolutely versus their job. They love that duty of it. That is knowledge. Just too afraid to even like, oh, that's it goes are great examples. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's just, you know, I've, you know, German Shepherds, you know, they'll run through a brick wall for you. And when, you know, there was one case where they, these two women see something over a school and the it was a big German Shepherd name Hans. And Hans starts whimpering and trying to dig a hole to hide in, and they were initially, oh, this is cool. We should go closer. And then that, Hans is scared out of his freaking mind. They ran. So yeah. You know, your pets and and hunters know the animals in the woods and they're hunting dogs. That's interesting. I'll start looking into the the hunting dog. yeah. angle of it. Yeah. And so I wonder then so I know you mentioned you that your, you know into history and things. Right. And so is that just what I've always told people is what I love about their stories. And then we go somewhere, I like to go do the ghost walks and things. so much the good ones give you the history of the place, too. And it's kind of a not not trying to be punny, but a living history of it. Right. So the ghost is kind of a remnant in some capacity, is telling the story. Right? is that what got you into, you know, ghost stories with the different books or, I was always fascinated. I don't know if you ever heard of Hans Holtz or. He was, very popular decades ago. And, you know, I was the. I was the unruly child reading under the covers with a flashlight. You know, ghost scares the ghost stories to scare the heck out of me. And it wasn't anything I ever thought I would do. And then, my boyfriend at the time, now, husband decades ago. I wanted to go to Gettysburg, you know, for the history. And he said we should stay at a haunted bed and breakfast. And I remember turning to him and say, are you crazy? There is no way I am going to spend the night in a haunted place and I got hooked. it was fascinating because every case is different. And, you know, I've been in many historic homes, prisons, battle fields, you know, restaurants, you name it. And it's like the ultimate question, what happens when we die? And you're getting a little preview when you do this and you know, you do you do find things that you can tie in. can just very simple case there were family moved into a house. It was an older house. And they kept smelling like, pipe tobacco, which is very distinctive. And, you know, the place had been completely stripped and repainted in this, and they were seeing a man in a dark robe. And the kids are getting scared. What is what is going on? And, so one day this old lady knocks on the house door and she says, oh, I'm sorry to bother you, but, you know, I lived here as a little kid. And so they said, do you know anything about, you know, this is scaring my kid. Oh, that was dad. He was a judge. and he wore the black robe. And I think he died of lung cancer because he smoked his pipe too much, sir. But, you know, there's no way these people could have known this. And so this guy is there, and he's giving clues. Look, I'm wearing a judge's robe. here's my pipe tobacco. a lot of these, hauntings, it's they're giving you clues. And to you, it's terrifying because you don't know what's going on. And most of them are benign. They just. There's something unresolved, and they're trying to get their message across. sir, I believe that there was one time, and this was. And this was many, many moons ago. my ex-girlfriend. So maybe 20 years ago. this is before, I was dating and married my wife. We went to a haunted hotel in Ventura, California, and, I got us the haunted room, but I forgot, actually, we also, I think about it and things, and we got there like. Oh, so did you get did you get a haunted memory thing? I'm like, no, I don't think so. You know, I have like, kind of forgotten and and also when that's all there anyways is that there's no fire. And this is why she's your ex-girlfriend like that. It's why she left me. This is one moment. but we got there, and there was a little closet, and so we got. And we're just throwing our stuff down, and she goes to the closet, and she just steps back, and she goes, are you sure this isn't the haunted room? like. Yeah, I'm sure. Why? So, I don't know, I just I don't see anything. I just open the closet and got, like, this real feeling, like dread. And I was like, oh. And she said, that's all right. No, no it's not. I'm like, no, I remember that's the story is that lady hunted herself in the closet. Oh, 000, she said, I was like, that's right. And that's the story. And so then the other part of that story was like, they she was like, pull your covers off at night, right? And I can't I didn't think anything of it. I tend to kick the covers off a little. I q I get hot right there loosely on me all the time. But I remember that night not being on me at all, and I felt like grabbing it and things, and I was like, oh. Then the next day she was like, okay, so tell me the truth. And I'm like, no, I think it is, you know, well, that's like there are some things. Wow. So and, you know, we didn't see anything or hear anything, but it was that and this never happened. All of the other times we've gone and that was never this. Oh feeling because she wasn't someone that was like, I, I'm an empath or something. Right. Sudden weirdness that that moment. So those are the best cases when you're not expecting something, you don't know the story and it's something happens to corroborate. Right. And what others have felt. Yeah. How do you feel about the like the, you know, what the term like the quote unquote kind of the ghost hunting equipment, you know, people have like the little light things that come on or you get the, the voices like, come on, what do you think about those? It's gotten absurd. you know, when I, when I started, I was, I had a, you know, ages ago before everybody had a, had a group. It was me and a 35 millimeter camera and a cassette recorder, you know, just interviewing people and taking pictures and, you know, some of the things the EMF meters, you know, electromagnetic fields. I think that's good. cameras that can see infrared, you know, applying the science. And then some of these things are they're just ridiculous. And there they are. And people spent. You know, I can't even watch these shows because they spend like four hours setting up all the equipment and they're focused on I mean, nobody has in in 30 years, nobody's ever called me. And my REM pod went off. I think it's haunted. No, you sit there and you listen because people hear footsteps. They hear voices, they see it that they're using their 5 or 6 senses. And that's the experience of a haunting. Once you establish that, sure. Bring in some technology, see if you can locate it. It, you know, I'm absolutely all for the science, but some of this stuff has no basis. And there were I was at, Eastern State Penitentiary in Philadelphia. I had agreed to speak and be part of a group hunt event there, like a weekend. And somebody had one of these things that it just it just scrolls back and forth between all the radio stations. That's all it does. And you're you're supposed to ask questions and get get messages and somebody, you know, asked a question and I don't know, they oh, it said William, I said, it also said it's 73 degrees in Detroit, you know. Right. I mean, it's just random nonsense. A lot of this. So, I'm, I am the last person to be anti-technology. But when you take advantage and come up with baseless gadgets that people spend, you know, tons of money, I there's one woman, she thought, oh, I'm going to get it. And she went and ran and spent $2,000 on all this equipment. And then she finally went on a ghost hunt and nothing really happened. But she was terrified and then sold everything, you know, at half price to a friend of mine. All right. Because she. It's not for her. you know, people are. What should I get? What? I, I was like, you know, get a digital recorder. You have a camera. I the best way to conduct a ghost hunt. Sit down and be quiet and see what I see and start from there. Right. Yeah, I believe it. When we were, I was born in Morgantown, West Virginia. Oh, there you go. And, and I, I wish I had never been here. I was born as we moved before. And, you know, we've never gone back. This. My dad went to WVU, which is there, but, you know, we live live there. and my dad was Air Force when I was a kid, so we moved around. So this past summer, I was like, oh, you know, when we go visit my grandparents and stuff that are like Pittsburgh and, you know, suburb of Pittsburgh kind of area, I was like, oh, let's go to Morgantown. You know, it's only an hour away. And I'm like, I hear it's beautiful. There's Cheat Lake by there. It's really gorgeous. So I went and said, okay, let's, let's go do this and be my brother, my wife, his wife, my niece and her husband. And I'm like, I'll see if I can find a ghost tour, because then you can go. They'll take us around the city, you get to see the city, they'll tell us, you know, different stories. And so we did it. And they have some of those. I think mine was like a ghost box. And with that, I was like, oh, look, it's being very active and I'm like, I, I don't know, it's like ghost. That's a nice sunny day to me. Like you said. Yes. And like, it could have said any number of things to me. Like, I can't hear whatever you're trying to tell me, but, I always wondered if there was ever like, to me, I was just like, oh, this seems like some goofiness you're throwing at me. yes. And I love ghost stories. I used to be haunted history on the History Channel. Yeah, those were good, because you got the story of The Haunting. What is not interesting to me is the number you get on your EMF meter. It's the story of the people who lived there and died there. And, the cause of the haunting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree with you completely. Was there, anything you learned? So about hearing, like, the stories and things did that teach you anything about storytelling? Did you take anything away from, like, hearing all these ghost stories, UFOs, like, you know, all the different things you researched, the people just telling their stories. Did that does that impact your your actual, like fiction writing or just writing in general? It yeah, I think it all kind of evolved together. because I used to love to write stories as a kid, but you're when you're creating fiction, you know, you're kind of making up people, places and things. But when you're interviewing people like I said, I like to be at the location and interviewing it just it just fleshes it all out. It just gives you the whole experience. What the place looks like, feels like, smells like, and so you can do richer storytelling in these in these cases. And there's somebody at the fair who goes, I just love the way you don't embellish. I was like, you don't have to. When you have a genuine UFO or a ghost case, there's no reason, you know, you need four page of flowery philosophizing. Tell the story. And and then the other. I was happy to say, he said, you make us feel like you're there with it. So that's that's always my goal. Whether I'm writing about UFOs or history, zombie novels, you know, whatever it is, I want the reader to feel like, oh, holy crap, I feel like I'm in the middle of this. so that's that is my goal. Whether I'm successful in that, you know, depends. But, that's what I always try to do, tell a good story. Right. Well, and, before we transitioned, like I told you before the show, and I've said it on the show a million times, like what they've been called writers drinking whiskey and ethically mandated to talk, some writing talk. So, before we transition completely there, I did want to ask you because I noticed, so you had the, mysterious stone sites, in the that's also Hudson Valley based, right. so maybe wondering what you could tell me, like just about those in general. What makes them mysterious and. Yeah. so across the Hudson Valley and throughout New England and really all over North America, there are big standing stones, there are chambers, there are massive glacial erratic that's, you know, boulders that fell out of the glaciers that seem to be pushed into different lines. And many, many of them, have astronomical alignments there. If you stand behind this rock and look at the pointed rock down there, it's where sunrise on winter solstice is going to come. And it's fascinating. I, I've been an amateur astronomer since I was a little kid. So with this I get to hike in the woods, study history and use my astronomy. And then there's weirdness that goes on at these places, too. But, I mean, I can't tell you how many miles I've hiked, and they're always at the top of mountains. Damn it. It's like, you know, you're always out of breath by the time you finally find the thing. but, you know, again, you bring science to it. You. If you can't be there on the actual date, there are apps that show you where the sunrises and sunsets are. And the mainstream historians in this area say Native Americans never built anything in stone. Well, that's just crap. You know, it's like they weren't smart enough to put one rock on top of another rock. It's really it's really insulting. But when, you know, if it was one site, fine. But when you find a dozen sites, when you find 100 sites and they're not all astronomically aligned, but they're mostly aligned to something just because we don't know what it is doesn't mean they didn't move those rocks for a damn good reason. To them, it was an important thing. So, there are groups that study this, and but they keep everything secret. We don't want to tell anybody where these things are, so a lot of them get destroyed because let's not bring public awareness. So I kind of took this up as a quest because I don't have anything else to do. I don't have any other projects, but no, I, you know, this was important to me because this is a huge piece of our past where ignoring and destroying and there's so much we could be learning for this, but it's like pulling teeth with, with a lot of the historians, and they, they can just like I used to teach astronomy just in, adult education. But still, I did my own curriculum. And, you know, I had to know something about astronomy. And I've been an amateur astronomer. And we did observing and things. And so it was a, historian at a local Suny State University college and somebody had said, oh, you, you know, you should talk. So I sent a bunch of photos and some great photos of, like, spring equinox sunset over this magnificent pointed stone, which was in a line of other stone eyes. And so I'm like, maybe this will break the ice and somebody will get the clue. Yes, these are legitimate archeological, historical sites. Well, I have never been so insulted in my life. I get this condescending thing now, Linda, you know you need more than one rock to take. He. He just ignored everything I had written, all the data I had written. He just looks at the picture. You can't just stand behind a random rock and photograph the sunset like you don't what I'm like. And he went on, and and the the glacial erotics that are pushed into line. He goes, now those are just big rocks that fell out of the ice of glaciers. I used to lecture on the impact of the ice age in the on glaciers in the Hudson Valley. So again, just oh, I was so steamed. And so I wrote back. Thank you so much for, for looking at the data I sent. And just to let you know, I used to teach astronomy and do understand the concept that you need two points to draw a line. And, you know, so I was I, I really just wanted to tear him a new one, but I was just I just pointed out, you know, my background, my science background and and you know that he he did not respond. I think he realized, oh. But that's so much of the reaction, unless, you know, you have a PhD in archeology and you try to suggest anything to anybody in academia. you know. Yeah, you, you know, get away, peasant, you know? Yeah. Look, even if you have a PhD, if you don't agree, you know, I think there's, I forget the, the the fellow's name, but he was a PhD, geologist. And he went to the, Sphinx in Egypt. And so this is like water erosion. That was a big everyone, you know, criticized him. They went on to me why he says that things. And now I think over the years, more people have started to agree with them to where it's not such a wild idea. And they've tried to the to fit it into their narrative. You know how it makes sense. Maybe if it's water erosion or and whatnot. But it's you know, they it's I always think of it as, intellectual humility. Right. Like I try to be like, if you're humble enough, then you can actually listen to what people are saying and, like, be open to it. And then maybe you can push back. Maybe you can disagree, maybe you can, you know, not think it makes sense. But if it's just I have this narrative and it's like, it's like if you're talking to someone who's a super religious. Right. Well, yes. Okay. Yeah. It's not real. This is what I think. Well, third, there's a coming from a place I'm never going to agree with you. Right, right. right. It is. It's more religion versus. No. It's supposed to be this. The science must be thought based, supposed to be a concept based. Can we talk? Supposed to be looking at it? yeah. So often it's not so. So, you know, you hear, like, a lot of these talking heads, and I don't put any particularly one on blast. But there's a few scientists you see on TV all the time, and there's a talk about everything. Like, they know like they, they're the, like, smartest human that knows all information, but, you know, they're they're basically. I am father, you know, like, oh, no, no, that can't be. It doesn't really say no. And I'm like, okay. And like you said, they'll never talk to a witness. They'll never actually look at the data. It's just know from afar they just, you know, poopoo it. And yep, they. Yep. so one of the Hudson Valley sounds like a magical place. It really it has it all. It is the Disneyland of the bizarre. it's true. And, you know, we have the history. We have the ancient Native American history. And of course, you know, we have the Dutch here so early, you know, 1600s and, you know, all the succeeding, you know, the British and you name the ethnicity coming into this area. So culturally, history wise. And then you put the paranormal and the stone sites and the UFOs. No wonder I don't have time to sit down and watch a movie. I mean, do you have any ideas why it might be such a hot spot for everything? Or is there ever any connections between, like, the UFOs and other kind of paranormal phenomena? Yes, and I fought that for years, but it seems, and again, we go back to Pine Bush. one of the biggest concentration of UFO sightings. And you can stand in the middle of this main street and say that place is haunted and that plays this on it and that place. So the, the weirdness seems to congregate in certain areas. And and why the Hudson Valley in particular? I have no idea. I think a lot of it is people have been here long enough to document a lot of it. you know, some of these other areas of the country, you know, like 1890 is new to them. I mean, it's old to them, right? That's like, whoa, you write something 100 years old is like, that's super old. And yeah, we go to the Pennsylvania. My grandparents house is 100 years old. You know, that's that's just one of 100 year old houses on the streets. So. Right, right. So I think maybe the it's just that there have been people here to pay attention to it. And, build on the stories. But there is there is something very unique to this area. I don't know what it is. It's beautiful. I don't know if you've ever been here, particularly in the fall. it's just a beautiful, diverse, you know, like you said, magical place. Right. and I love how you keep your sense of humor about it. You know, too, you know, sometimes you'll see people on, you know, the different shows and let's just be very like, yeah. Because they want to be taken seriously and they haven't been right, through the years. And you kind of lose your sense of humor about it. I appreciate that you keep it right. Yeah. Thank you even to, like, talking to you anyways. But then also you can see it in your work with, bad science and that's too. So I think that's a real boon. how do you live? So just generally like, so that there's, like, the mundane kind of day to day life. Right. and then there's all of this kind of fantastical stuff you deal with. Is it does it ever. Is it hard, ever like doing the day to day or is it just kind of this is just your life because you don't think anything of it or. Yeah, it's it is inextricably intertwined, obviously. And, you know, I'll, I'll go on like, like Saturday, you know, spent all day at this UFO faire conference, you know, speaking and interviewing witnesses. And, you know, you have to come home and do your laundry. I mean, it's just like, you know, there is there is the life aspect of it, but, yeah, it's, it's my life now, so I don't really I don't really differentiate now because it is so interwoven with it's not only what I do, it's who I am. So it's just part of everything that, there you go. Has it. So in a the ghost I know we've touched on a little bit like kind of life after, you know, this one, right. how's it just the culmination of all of that? How has it affected your views on death? And you know, what happens after? I think I always believed in ghosts and some sort of afterlife. And I was always fascinated by, you know, stories of reincarnation. You know, kids who remember something they have no way of remembering. But I didn't realize how pervasive it is. It's rather common. And even if you know, a ghost to me is something stuck in a location, whereas there could be like just the spirit of a deceased person, you know, your grandmother comes to say hi to you on your birthday or something like that. She's not stuck there. It's just and how often it happens to so many people and so there's a very, you know, they say the veil between worlds. It's very thin and there's a lot of holes in it. So up and. Yeah. And that's just another, just just one quick story. several years ago, my, mother in law passed away, and it was a very beautiful funeral. And at one point they played one song. It was, Let the Circle Be Unbroken. I had never heard it before. And we're all standing there holding hands, and it's like, you know, a moving moment. But the song went on and on and on, like, all right, we're not going to break the circle already, you know? So I didn't I didn't say that, but, I had enough of that already. So, I don't know, it was like 2 or 3 days later, I'm, in a library in Nyack, New York, because it's, it's an old library that's haunted. And they invited me to come in, and I'm with a friend of mine, Barb Barbara, who's, psychic. And she didn't know anything about my mother in law. The funeral, whatever. We just got together and were in the children's room. It's like midnight and it's dark, and then she stops because there's an old woman here. I'm like, okay, I don't know what an old woman's doing in the children thing. She's like, she wants to talk to you. And I'm like, what? And she looks right in my eyes. And she said, yeah, she keeps singing this song, Let the Circle Be Unbroken. I gasp, and I put my eye back up like, no, no, no, no no no, you know it's what. And and then she goes, yeah. She said you know what. That she knows what you do now. And she just wanted you to tell everybody she's okay I'm going to get like choked up. And I'm like, I'm covered in goosebumps now. It was one of the most intense moments that she knew. I wrote about ghosts and probably was like, yeah, okay, that's my crazy daughter in law. You know, something like that. Sure. But then she comes to see me on a ghost hunt and and so I'm like, saying to my husband, I was like, should I tell your sister? Like, yeah, go ahead. So, I told this, you know, he told them the story and it helped them. You know, it brought them some comfort. But, you know, there's absolutely no way I. She knew anything about this. And, you know, the psychic. And it was just one of the craziest moments. And it's like, okay, they're around us are they're our loved ones. They're around us all the time. They see everything. They know what's going on, which is a little creepy. You know, when you're living with us, you're living with her son. And, but yeah. So I think that was a huge lesson I learned that it's not just the creepy old house on the other side of the railroad tracks. It's everywhere with everyone. If you just pay attention to it. All right? Right. Amen. That is. Yeah. That is a powerful story. It's funny too. How much? you know, it's so easy. It's almost like the guys with the ultra lights, right? It's so easy to go. Oh, psychics. They're just using a mind trick, and they do this. I'm. So there's a bunch. That's not exactly sure doing it, you know, and. Yep. And but when you like you mentioned reincarnation stories obviously when you actually just listen to some of them and they go through it, it's a no no. And then you realize there's so much other, you know, there's so much going on. Like, how can you not be curious, you know, interested in what's going on here? you have to kind of put the blinders on. There's no no, I had this, you know, worldview. And when we die, we, you know, it's darkness and we go into the ground, and that's just the end, you know, the end of everything. Yeah. Surprise, surprise. No, what you do now matters later. Yeah, yeah. Amen. So, So so then, let's transition to the poetry and talk here. so what I was curious about, I think I mentioned to you, this before the show is that, with the the great variety of things you write, right? There's like history, there's science, there's the paranormal stuff, and then there's the fiction writer, the zombie story. how do you like what does your process, your writing process, is it different from kind of one type of writing to the next? Is it all basically the same? Could you describe that for us? Yeah. history and science. You can do the story telling, but it is a real discipline because you need to have your facts absolutely corroborated, particularly, well, in either science or history. And, you know, I do, do, I have done a lot of writing in Civil War. And if God help you, if you get the number of buttons wrong on somebody's jacket, or get the regiment wrong, you know, they'll ride you out of, town on rails. so there is a much strict year in a strict guidelines, whatever it is you're writing about, make sure it's in the frame work of the truth and the facts, and then you know your take on it. When I do my fiction, I feel like I'm kind of let out of school for the summer, you know? because that's my facts. That's my fiction. That's, that's the world I create. And I really got into writing for fiction. I know I've done a lot of nonfiction, but I always say fiction. My fiction is where I live and breathe because it's my imagination going out there and, creating whatever it is I want to create, whatever helps my story be more compelling. so that's that's the difference for me. Sure. that that's lovely. I love the way you put it there. Just, you know, fiction writers and poets, we like to talk. Well, I don't know that we like to talk about, but we do talk about, like, truth and beauty, you know, and, you know, and I think it's a real thing. And I think that's part of it is like when you're writing fiction, there is a truth. I sometimes hate when people go my truth and it's like, I'm. I'm getting rid of objective facts with it. But there is a like, emotional, like a personal truth to things. and you find that and there's an emotional and personal beauty to them. has, do those ever interweaves like when you're, when you're writing something, you know, about the Civil War versus, you know, how do you find the truth and beauty in that story, versus when you're, when you're working on infection. I yeah, I, you know, certainly in, in any war situation it's horror. But the bravery, the fortitude of the individuals, the, the compassion in the middle of just absolute carnage, you know, you see the best come out in a in a lot of people. And that's something you can always cling to and amplify in, in a situation. So, sometimes it's hard and there are no good characters and you just have to tell the truth of that. But I'm certainly always looking for those bright spots and very dark moments for my life. I think, it's funny, I always say, like, I'm on the fence about people, you know, like some people I think are like, oh, you know, humans are so bad. We we cast, you know, we cast a shadow. but you see that a lot is everyone goes, oh, you know, an apocalypse. Everyone would just be awful. So, you know, a lot of people are going to be great to their is going to be awful people, and there's going to be a lot of people that band together. And so the reason we're still alive is if we didn't band together, like we would have died out a very long time ago because we're not that exceptional of animals, you know? No. but, but we band together, you know, and things. And so you see that altruism and, you know, the real spirit of you, someone is, you know, yeah. And people discover, things and in themselves, they didn't know they were capable of doing so. you you yourself can be surprised. And then people you think would be wonderful or horrible. So, you know, I mean, you know, it's this, this Shakespearean drama of, you know, extremes and characters of all sorts. And so you can take that and drop it into any sort of situation. And then that's, that's again part of the, the fun of fiction, the adventure of, okay, I'm going to create this character that people think are X, but it's really y, sir. give me back to you. So you had, ghost investigators that was made into a comic. I was wondering, were you involved with the process, like, the writing process of turning it into a comic? I was stunned at how many different components there are to doing a comic book. I was like the story consultant, you know, telling them the story. Excuse me. And then there's someone who writes the script, who does the pencils, who does the inking, and who does, you know, I had no idea. I was amazed, and these are all very talented people, you know, who who bring together, something like a comic book. So, yeah, it was it was very fun. You know, they would run things by me, just to make sure, you know, I'd want to say accurate, but, you know, in line with what the story was, so that was that was a really fun process I had I had a blast with that. Right. Awesome. And they had to make an action figure out you at some point. They do. I, I don't understand what's taken so long. I would buy it too, I think I have, so I have Mothman up here. I saw your Mothman. That's great. Yeah. I've been to the moth Mothman Museum. Oh. Very good. I want to go. I haven't, I haven't been yet, but yeah, West Virginia kids. I will go there. Yeah, yeah. baby, I would love to have, All right. I'll let you know when I get my action figure. Oh, do you remember the one that had the the real kung fu? action cards for action? Yes. I want to kung fu. I don't know kung fu, but I would just. If I'm going to be an action figure, I want the cool things and all kinds of gadgets, you know, to hold the stuff. So that's true. And you have all of the gears, but equipment for your actions? Yes. All right, all right. We're putting that out there to the universe. Get in touch with me if. You do you, so with your so and then, you know, I mentioned the humor earlier, but I wonder, as far as, you know, infusing humor into your writing. Is that something that, I know that science is, is comical, right? you know, is is part of the making of it. Is that something that you infuse a lot in the fiction of things, too, and, you know, the other stories, or is that, you know, just kind of a one by one scenario? Yeah. It's something I can't help infusing in everything because again, it's just me. And I found out, even with the ghost stuff, if you stand up and give a lecture about death and destruction and hauntings for an hour doesn't go well, you need to break it up with a little humor here and there and, you know, have lighthearted moments and, you know, then you zero in. It's, it's that play of emotion. You can't in anything. You can't have a monotone emotion running through the whole thing. You need to break it up. so, I mean, I even used to give lectures on Civil War humor because, you know. Yeah, yeah. You know, soldiers are salt, men are men. You know. You know, you get a few thousand guys in camp, things happen. so, yeah, I like to look at the humor because for me, it's it's a huge stress relief. It's just I'd much rather laugh and cry. So, it's just something I've always, gravitated to, and. Yeah, I think it's probably part of of everything I do, whether I, I can't help it, whether I, whether I want to or not. but yeah. So that's and I like I said, I think it just breaks things up and, you know, shifts your moods and, and everything, so. Right. I have on a, a nature writer, Michael Branch was on the show. what do you say? You know, humor is going to be nature writing and things. And he had described it as that humor is a survival technique that's like we use us to survive tense moments since the earliest days. So. Yeah. Yeah, that the idea that you shouldn't joke about something is like, that's the wrong thing. Like no matter what it is, you should be willing to, to still have some, some light heartedness to it because otherwise you'll never bear it. You won't survive it. Right? right. Yeah. I think you're more resilient. If you can laugh about things. Right? Yeah, absolutely. So. Okay. Thank you for that. So I think that it's time for some shots. so, Casper, it's, it's almost 2 p.m. West Coast time, so, so just rapid fire questions. so are you ready? Oh, shoot. All right, there we go. So, are all dogs haunted, or is it just mine? There's a lot of haunted dolls. Yes, many are. okay, so not just my get to know I'm not alone. That's what I was. That's what. Yeah. I do have a somewhat haunted doll store, but let's go through the shots. worst advice I've ever received. it I, I don't know if you call this advice. It was kind of criticism. I think it was my fourth grade teacher who said if I did not improve my penmanship, I would never amount to anything. So. Yeah, because I didn't have I. Yeah, I didn't have the greatest and I still don't have the greatest handwriting, but that is that is quite a thing to put on a nine year old. right. Right. Aspiring writer. Right? Of course, if word processors hadn't come out, I might have made out it to nothing. So, you know better for God, for technology. what's a guilty pleasure? Chocolate choco. Chocolate. Chocolate, chocolate and chocolate. Those are the top three. Yeah. I can't go a day without chocolate. Yes. I don't know if that's a that's pretty a guilty pleasure. I think, you know, that's that's fine. if aliens came off their high horse, you know, like, pun intended with this one. Hoover, high above us, right? High horse presented themselves to us tomorrow. What's one piece of art you would give them to teach them about humanity? Oh, boy, that's a good one. What would I give them? to teach about humanity? I might you might have stumped me here. probably some beautiful mountain or ocean scene. Just something, something magnificent that we've been able to recreate about our our planet. sure. I'll go with that. Yeah. Very good. frogs. Disgusting abominations to be avoided at all costs. Or proof that the aliens are malicious and should be avoided as we are plagued by peeper frogs in the I mean invasions of them, I'd say they're evil demons from hell. So if I know that wasn't one of the choices. But that's okay. Okay. There's no hard choices. For you. So that's what. I don't know what it is, but I've always had an irrational fear of frogs. Oh, really? I can't look at it. I don't know why. I just, like, creeped me out. Like, there can be, like a mountain lion. I would be fine seeing it. But if you put a frog there, like, oh my God, that's when I push my wife in front of me. Like everything else. Like, everyone get mad over frogs. I'm like, no, you guys and all this is what I mean about, oh, well, you don't want to be here because there's a swamp in the back and in the spring they just start peeping. You can't sleep and then they come. We have a pool and they want to come start breeding in the pool. And if you try to get in, if you try to, like, get them away, they will jump and cling to you. And you're like covered in frogs and they're peeping and there's, you know, there's very loud and they're everywhere. It's just like a nightmare. You just, I don't know, not sleep tonight, like I'm sorry. Well, my job here is done. Then. burger one I've never I've never heard that before. Like. Yeah. Cheers. Floats. Yeah. That is not fun. No. Yeah. so and finally, favorite podcast. And why is it writers drinking whiskey? I just discovered it. It's rapidly becoming my favorite. Oh, it will be after this episode. can I, can I say my own podcast? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can I have two of them. I have murder in the Hudson Valley because I also do, too. True crime. Because I don't have enough else to do. And then I have a UFO headquarters, so I go, I have a real kick doing doing those. Right? Yeah. I have to tell my wife and my wife, we went on, I like this. I didn't notice the Unsolved Mysteries podcast when it started. So we had done, I think, just two seasons. Unfortunately, I should keep going, but, we took a drive up to Central California and for anyone of not where like California is like you have the LA China and then South is like people live there and they have San Francisco area like all the Bay area kind of Silicon Valley area. People live there. Central is is barren, right? There's people, but it's it's it's rural. There's there's not much, it's where all the farmland and stuff is. And, okay, so we took a drive up the coast, this little village cooking embryos where, we got engaged and things. Oh, for our anniversary this, this past year. Listen to them song. This is on the way up. And we got there, and we got the nice room with the ocean view and things, and we have this sitting there, like so, some unsolved mysteries, and we just sat there. It was fantastic. Obviously we fell asleep. We took a nap, woke up some morning and sort. When I told her you were coming on the show. She was so excited. So so so I don't know that she watches mostly shows because she gets quite enough of me, but this will be when she watches and I'll have to tell her because she loves murder like true crime. Oh, there you go. Yes. Yeah. Murder in the Hudson Valley. We started out with just Hudson Valley, and we started getting listeners all around the world. So it's a podcast are just amazing. So I started branching out to. And now it's basically anywhere in the world. I'll, I'll cover. Oh very cool. Yeah, yeah, we'll definitely check them out. Thanks for that I mean, trust, besides it being a self-serving, you know, question on my end, I also like to like shed light on other podcasts. So it works out both ways. So, so thank you for that. So, then I think we can get to, the review and then you have a piece you're ready to revise today, but, yeah, just just about a page. Is that good? That's fine. Okay. So, Yeah, I've got back to the the bad science. One of my favorite stories was about, William Harvey, the one who discovered. Well, I'll tell you what he discovered. So. the first half of the 1600s wasn't the safest time in history to propose original ideas. Men of science in Europe were being threatened, tortured and burned at the stake for trying to disrupt the old school of thought with new theories based upon observations and experiments. In other words, they were in peril simply because they were being good scientists. So it was with some trepidation and 12 long years of deliberation that Englishman William Harvey finally published his theories on the heart and blood. In 1628, he presented a 72 page book with the big name exaltation anatomical demo to Cordis. It's sanguine es in animal abuse, the anatomical exercise on the motion of the heart and blood in living beings, and what was in Harvey's book that caused such a ruckus. Here's the monumental, earth shattering revelation the heart pumps, the blood that circulates through the body. No, really. That's it. Harvey said that the heart is a pump and blood circulates through the veins and arteries that was it in a nutshell. Doesn't sound like anything to get upset about, right? Wrong. For over 20 years after Harvey's book was published, he endured scathing criticism, with some learned men going so far as to declare that his theories violated the very laws of God and nature. No, really. People were quite upset by the idea of the heart pumping, circulating blood. The reason they were so upset was that over 1400 years earlier, the legendary Greek physician Galen had written that blood was created in the liver, went one way through the veins out to the edges of the body, where it just disappeared. According to his theory, blood was essentially disposable. Use it once and throw it away. And the heart was not a pump. It was the seat of a spiritual force, and arteries were not meant to carry blood. They were designed to transport air. And this mythical spirit, mystical spirit Galen, became so revered over the centuries that his work was taken as gospel. And anyone who challenged Galen was a fool and a heretic. If you conducted experiments that produced evidence that went against Galen, it could only mean one thing your experiment was faulty and your conclusions were wrong, and you were a fool and a heretic. Wow, that isn't me. I haven't heard that story before. but geez, that, you know, it reminded me of when you said it. is that an. I'm sure Einstein's better, you know, in the long run, because he keeps getting proven right on certain things. But if you ever anyone wants to go against Einstein, it's like you're a fool. And a heretic. Yes, and there you go. As much as he can know at the time you would think of something, right? But find other things. You know, maybe some of his stuff gets disproven. And then I say, no, we can't go against Einstein. It's like he's this revered, kind of godlike, you know, character. So that that's interesting. And then Beyond the Spirits is pumped around. I don't know why the spirit is pumped around through your veins, but yeah. And plus, if you look at that, somebody, did the number of heartbeats and the capacity of the heart and realized you would need to generate 65 quarts of blood every day, which. There you go. There's the end of Galen start. Well, yeah, but that's if the heart was a pump and it, you know. So they just it was ridiculous for the longest time. And he was genuinely, genuinely in fear of his life. Sure. there was once this a long time to. Yeah. About something. I mean, it could. That's a lot of deliberation. That's a lot of fear. Yeah. Unfortunately, he didn't live long enough. there was an Italian scientist, Mel P.G., who, was looking at, frogs. There you go. Frogs. under microscopes and discovered capillaries. And they couldn't explain, you know, because until capillaries were discovered, they didn't know how the blood came back. They knew what was being pumped, but they didn't know. They couldn't see until the microscope, revealed it. but he knew he was. He knew he was right. And finally, by the end of his life, you know, 20 years later, people begrudgingly. All right, maybe the hard part of your. So that's basically what the the book. That's the. I thought that was a good representative. and the, the Agassi who, was the one who came up with the Ice age. Well, that was the stupidest thing in the world, you know, Ice age, the continental drift. Well, that's ridiculous. Continents don't move, you know, it's you name it, these scientists have put up with. And, you know, some of them have been tortured and lost their lives over it. Right. what is so funny? Because we don't learn the lesson either. Right now. We know you think we know everything. You know, there's going to be something we're going to get proven completely wrong about. Of course we're no, no, I'm asked of you this way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I had let's see if I can quick find. I think I ended the book with, yes. Seneca. the Roman in, he was one BC to 65 A.D. he said our descendants will marvel at our ignorance. very. So I included that, and, that's the last thing I wrote in the book, because, yeah, it's. Yeah. Oh, well, yeah, they were wrong, but now we know everything. Right. Yeah. Oh, that's right. Yeah. Okay. Well, as you see it with kids too, which is always funny, but, I like I love seeing it with the kids because I go when I'm a parent. I'll never do that with my kids. and then you see him. Me and my wife joked about this, like, I don't point it out because I was going to do it. Like, I was like a five year, but I might. I see it like I see it too. But keep a little notebook so you can remind them. Yeah. On October 12th, 2024, do you remember you saying this right? exactly. Parents need revenge once in a while. Are we? Do we really do? Awesome. So I wonder then what's what's next for you as far as, a a rather serious project. 30 years ago, I was going through a collection of documents found in an old trunk, and it was basically from, the 1700s through to the present, almost. And there was a lot of Civil War letters and material. And there was one soldier who just caught my attention. His name was Albion. Brooks was with the eighth Connecticut, and he was just such a nice guy. And all these other letters, everybody. Have you seen Albion? Do you know where Albion is? Do you have any news of Albion? I'm like, oh we buddy folks, this guy and it's you know, you're reading all these letter and I'm like, I really like Albion. You know, guy had died 100 years before I was born. Excuse me, but he was just such. He was intelligent. He was compassionate. He was, you know, in all these fights and. And then I pick up a letter, dated June 4th, 1864 from Cold Harbor, Virginia. And it's like I regret to inform you, your dear friend Albion Brooks was severely wounded. And it goes into he was shot through the abdomen, and we knew it was mortal. But we tried to keep him comfortable and in fact, today is the 106. I'm getting goosebumps. The 160th anniversary of his death. He died on June 3rd. And it's said, you know, he he closed his eyes, said, I am and going and quietly breathed his last. I, I was crying my eyes out. I feel like crying now because I knew this, you know, I didn't know. But you get to know a person and, you know, at this point my husband calls and I'm in tears. He's like, what's the matter? Like like Albion Brooks is dead. There's this pause. Yeah, I guess he knew he was in the Civil War. Did you really think he was still alive? I said, no, you don't get it. I just picked up that letter and to me, it just it just happened. So I have spent three decades. I finally tracked down a photo of him so I could look him. I have him, I, I keep him, I keep him by my, desk here. he's a handsome fellow. He was. And he was just 21 years old when he when he died, you know, his whole life ahead of him. And I kept finding more and more little clusters of letters. And I finally, just a few months ago, came upon a huge collection of his letters. I've read his diaries and it's like, all right, now's the time. I'm going to write this, this man's story. but I'm not it's not going to be a strict biography because I was like, I don't know quite how to approach this. And, you know, a historian should really keep themselves out of the history. And my husband said, you're the whole reason his stories are going to be told. You're the one who's been running around the country for 30 years gathering this information. And I said yes. So it's going to be called a Civil War soldier. And me and it's, you know, no, because I'm, I can't tell you how many years and hours I've devoted to this man's story. And so it's it's interesting that we're on the anniversary of his death here, talking about it, but, Yeah, honestly, historians, they can't help but put themselves in it, even if it's masked. And, you know, they have their own opinions and the way they write the story. So I'm just going to be honest about it, and I'm just going to talk about the process. And anybody who does something like this, it's so much of their own time. you know, whatever it is you're doing, you really pour yourself into it. So I'm just it's going to be his life. But kind of a shout out to all, like I talked a couple of weeks ago to, a woman who runs a small museum and she's getting on in years, and she doesn't have enough help, but she she and her husband started this museum decades ago, and she's, you know, it's her own time, her own money. And it's important to her to keep it going. And it's people like that, you know, who are dedicated to whatever cause it is, whatever subject. you know, it's not a job to them. It's not. I'm going here 9 to 5 and getting a paycheck. It's pouring yourself into it night and day, round the clock, you know? so, so that's, I'm going to, you know, shout out to people who have helped me with this and then my own story of, you know, lots of times I kind of sat down and you know, watched a movie or gone out to dinner. But no, I need to read about the regimental history of this, you know, or I found another letter. so it's been a real personal quest. So this is going to be a very personal project for me, That's lovely. I love the, you know, the two things to remind me of. One is that there was the the, I think it was, I think sort as a blog, but like Julia and me or some, like Julia Childs or someone that when they made a movie about it later, you know, Julia and Julia or something like that. So. So yeah, that was. Yes. and that was really interesting kind of seeing the relationship that gets built, you know, between, you know, like she's Julia Child and then her, but then in this case, you and, and the soldier and then the other layer of it being just the, the people in general that do these things, right, like you mentioned, the lady with the museum things and the care people take with like their history. Yes. You know, with the past, is, is is lovely. Anyway, I always think, like, when they, you know, funeral rites. All of this is really lovely the way, you know, people care for, for their loved ones and then continue to care for the, the past at this point that's, you know, yeah. Maybe there might be some graver related to but mostly like you're not there at some point. Right, right. So. Right. It's just some, you know, young man who had an extraordinary way of writing. Had he not written the letters the way he did or the diary? he was just a captivating individual. you know, certainly caught my attention and, you know, again, he was just three weeks past his 21st birthday when he died. And, it's a way of honoring people who went before us. so I, I am privileged to be able to do this project. Yeah, absolutely. I yeah, I look forward to it. So, so thank you so much for coming on. if people want to find out more about you, what's the best place for them to go? I have, all sorts of Facebook pages, Hudson Valley UFOs. If you're just interested in that, I have to. Linda Zimmermann, author. You know, and non author pages. I do have a website. I don't keep it up any more, but it's still there. Go to zem.com and then my podcasts, the, UFO headquarters or murder in the Hudson Valley. Oh, very good. And I'll link them up with, the description of the show here, too. Great. Thank you. Plug those in there so they can find them. So, thanks again. This has been a real, you know, thrill for me. It's been great timing. Besides, I've been excited because if you're on Unsolved Mysteries, you're a celebrity to make this up. But I was super excited about this. you know, it was great meeting. You know, it is super, super great talking to you. Thanks so much for coming on. This is thank you. It's been one of the most fun podcasts I've ever done. So my pleasure. Extra shots. Question for the audience. As always. If you watched after a certain point. Does. I didn't do it before. At that point. have you ever witnessed a UFO slash UAP slash? Whatever we're calling them these days? let us know down there in the comment section. I will let you know mine. I actually experienced to not that while cases, but I'll read them. And as always, if you are interested in, you know, supporting the show, please consider picking up a book. We went over a bunch of lenders today. I'm really excited. I got to get my copy of the, bad Science, but also the animal book, because now I need to know. I think my dogs aren't just going nuts out there. They're alerting me to some kind of phenomena, and I need to pay attention to. you know, consider that I consider my dog to be so kind. that's really the truly the best way to support the show is we don't have any advertisements or anything else on here. You just get, you know, unabridged writers drinking whiskey or coffee or tea. thanks again, everybody, for tuning in. You know, stay safe so you stay tipsy and, cheers.